Audi R4 Rumours Resurface Once Again

Mid-engined R4 placed above TT, below R8
by Thami Masemola
November 13, 2008 10:22 AM
Filed Under: Artist Renderings, Audi, German, Rumours

Audi R4. A four-wheel-drive mid-engined coupe/ roadster. Heard of it before, seen it in these renderings by WCF in-house rendering artist Larson too. Many thought it died at the same time Porsche took over the building? Well not really...

Fresh rumours suggest the R4 is a go and a quick one at that. The car will use a new platform which will be shared by next-generation Boxster and Cayman, a cost-managing measure to be implemented by new and highly profitable bosses at Porsche. But why not use the current TT platform? Apparently because that baby is on its last generation, to be replaced by another mid-engined something called the R3.

Audi is keen to ride on the R8's current shine, hence all this mid-engine mayhem. The R4 will rest above TT/ R3 in the range and cost around £35,000 when it comes into market in the expected year of 2011. Rear-wheel-biased 60:40 quattro will be fitted and mated to either a 6-speed manual or 7-speed R-Tronic double-clutch gearbox. Engines include a V6, lower-spec 4-cylinder types and the new 335bhp 2.5-litre turbo. Diesel is not out of the question either.

A whole lot of other "R" sports cars are being planned, including an R6 - Jaguar XK/ BMW 6 rival - and R10 which is based on the V12 TDI engine.

 

Source: autoexpress
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Comments

r8 lol

by BabyMilo | November 13, 2008 10:37 AM
they are just plain boring...

by fatrichard | November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
So the R4 will be A4/A5 sized whereas the R3 will be A3/TT sized, and the R6 in the same segment as the R8, it would appear...?

by James2911 | November 13, 2008 11:52 AM
so stupid ..look at audi product chains, i mean i dont know where to start when i wanna shop an audi car, from A1,A2,A3,A4,A5,A6,A7,A8, ...then A9 ??.R4,R5,R6,R7,R8...??...Q1,Q2,Q3..Q7.,Q11.???? damn boring ..please audi , make it simple the best

by andy | November 13, 2008 12:05 PM
like porsche you mean.. 911....................

by munch997 | November 13, 2008 1:28 PM
lol, variety boosts sails, the more variety the more criteria Audi fill, which allow for more customers.

why are you complaining, what? you wanna buy 10 audis? just buy one or not and be quiet.

by gumball | November 13, 2008 1:42 PM
sales*

by gumball | November 13, 2008 1:43 PM
How about $hit1, $hit2, $hit3.... Boring Audi.

by American-Rules | November 13, 2008 1:53 PM
Exactly, so bloody boring and not to mention that ugly front grille. The R8 looks like a rat anyway. The only hype is just that it is Audi's first time in this mid-engine segment, which BMW had already achieved 30 years ago with the R8. As for gumball's comment, the point is that audi is trying to fit in so many segments that it is diluting its own brand, not that there's any value in Vw's Audi anyway. But the fact is that unlike BMW, Audi cars have no character, no soul, no fun factor, just plain old boring Sh1t. In plain English, it is rubbish. want something amazing and special, go for the M3 - real man's sports car, not some R4, RS4 whatever sports car want to be that's actually a 4x4. Please don't come up with this fugly R4 and try to con customers.

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 3:16 PM
your are right about the M3, its a very very good car I have to say, yet a lot of people over look it for the 5 and 6 series which is stupid. But you cant judge the R8 by just looking at photos of it. the R8 has a similar V8 to the M3 anyway so you still get that nice roar, If you have driven the R8 you would know that it has an overdose of grip, you could do anything to that car and it would stick to the road, IMO on a windy road the r8 would be more fun than an M3 but both are very nice cars. Dont get me started on the RS4, Its the best fricken car in the world, I dont know what they did, but the RS4's V8 engine is smooth as butter, you can hardly fell it, plus the interior is top notch and the seats are the most comfortable things in the world. I got to say Audi still has it. I think the hatbacks and maybe the R3 is pushing it your right, but what Audi is doing is smart because there cars are really nice to drive and everybody should be driving them.

by gumball | November 14, 2008 12:17 AM
Don't get me started on VW. they may not have the name, But here in Australia they are a bargain, Probably the best value for money, since Mercedes and BMW sell for around 120k+ a good R36 would sell for about 60k and they are the same fricken car they are all competitors yet the VW is way way cheaper. The Brand name fools a lot of people, but I got to say that VW should be looked at for their Value rather their name.

by gumball | November 14, 2008 12:23 AM
Gumball, how can you compare the R8 to the M3? The R8 costs twice as much and is a complete different vehicle. R8 andRS4 engine is the same one, which makes the R8 kind of rubbish. Correction to you as well, R8 does get out of line, especially when you push it hard on bends, so does the BMW M3, which is what makes thm fun to drive. But the feel of the R8 is just not as good as the M3. As for the interior of the Rs4, I think it is kind of stale and boring. Materials are not of the best quality if you compare it to the M3. Even the new A4's interior, which is what the new RS4 is going to be based on is not up to the standard of the 3 Series and its derivatives. As for the prices of Merc and BMW. The best would be for the public to boycottt their products. I am sick of companies making a fool out of their customers and making them pay extra. Take your BMW and Merc prices, compare that to Germany prices taking into account your exchange rate, if they differ unfavourably, boycott the product and you'll see prices going down. The good thing about America is that the customers do not take non-sense. Companies must be reasonable and up to standard or else they get kicked out. That's why you see that BMW prices in America is cheaper due o the stiffer competition and consumers' bargaining power and once they feel like being cheated the product and company goes down.

by Freude120 | November 14, 2008 8:59 AM
Hey look, gpkh is back with a new name but the same telltale signs. You can always smell crap no matter how hard it tries to hide.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:03 PM
The fact is that we are great supporters of good products, no matter which brand. But please, justwake up. VW currently has no good offering from their Audi badged cars. Wow, my heart is bleeding from your stab of calling my advice and comment crap!

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:30 AM
Yes they are all just so bad, thats why so many people must be buying them and why they are consistently winning awards across the board.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 1:11 PM
LOOKS LIKE AN R8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by mmr66 | November 13, 2008 12:10 PM
And the R8 is the worst looking cr in its segment. It looks like a RAT. See that's what Audi does, copy all its designs, just different sizes. No Character, no soul, plain old boring VW rubbish!

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 3:17 PM
couldnt agree more!

by eas722 | November 13, 2008 4:04 PM
No sh!t, Sherlock!!

by Motor_Yakuza | November 13, 2008 5:13 PM
Yeah, thats the reason it was awarded World Design Car of the Year.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:04 PM
Don't talk rubbish here, the World Car Design of the Year did not go to the R8, it lost in that category. It is the worst loking car in its class. Imagine competing with Astons Ferrari and Lambos, This is an ugly RAT looking crap!

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:32 AM
Just look up the World Design Car of the Year. The R8 achieved it and so did the TT. I can see the shock that it has caused from your post. Its a good thing that the panel of judges are made up of 26 of the most highly respected automitive journalists from around the world. It must be hard to accept that you are in the minority.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 1:14 PM
Audi start to make too much cars. Their customer are going to leave the showroom cause they can't choose what to buy

by MTC | November 13, 2008 1:02 PM
They try to be everything but good at nothing. BMW is best at everything they do because they don't try to be everything. They only do things that they can do best. So if you want the best, go to BMW. If you want understated stuff (i.e. inferior, not extraordinary, go buy yourself a VW or VW's Audi). Shame

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 3:20 PM
Even though it might seem that Audi has 2 many models, if u look at it closely, many (MANY!!) models share platforms with other models/vehicles...be it Audi, VW, Porsche, Skoda etc...therefore to come out with a "new" model, which will fill in a small gap on the market, will bring almost no cost with it, as the interior/motorization is almost the same...plus with the success of the R8 and the way the economy/car markets are going, its a very smart move...it will sell like pancakes, will be a thrill to drive, yet economical-ish (b sure they will market it that way)...

by zdenda20 | November 13, 2008 1:49 PM
Please, please, please AUDI. Stop having bloody LED lights. Stop make a boring car.

by American-Rules | November 13, 2008 1:51 PM
Yeah, make some cars like they do in America and go bankrupt while your at it just as they all are.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:08 PM
Are you drunk??? Which country are you from? At least the Americans are more original and won;t go and copy other companies' (i.e. BMW)concepts and technology and designs and pass it as their own. At least American companies will not con their customers by selling them basically a Seat but charge them BMW prices. That's why Audi only sellsa small fraction of what BMW does in America. Audi is just not attractive to the American public. Let's have a list of what they copied: LED lights from BMW's Rolls Royce, BMW rear Light tube lights for the rear (look the the A3's and the 1 Series), BMW X3 copied to teh Q5, X5 copied to the Q7 (which is fugly anyway that's why it sells a tenth of X5's volume), iDrive to MMI, BMW RWD to their new Quattro 60/40, run flat tyres in TT, BMW key concept, auto parjk, lane departure, rear view camera, active cruise control and many more. Technologies that Audi will copy in th near future: Night Vision, HUD, corona rings.... they are a bunch of people ith no ideas, just buy a BMW when it's out and copy. Tells you about their owners and supporters as well.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:41 AM
I suppose that everything with 4 wheels has copied BMW then hasn't it. The fact is thought that Mercedes Benz was the first to invent the car back around 1890. I guess BMW copied them then didn't they? And American cars, well they are really some of the worst products out there. Even Japanese and Korean brands such as Hyundai have better quality and reliability etc. You may not have heard, but GM is apparently on the verge of bankruptcy after posting continuous huge losses. Its interesting that even you don’t support your own nations cars. You need to feed off our lands automotive engineering to compensate for the poor quality of your own.

Its not surprising that Audi's don't sell well in the US though and they do almost everywhere else. Its a land where style, sophistication and culture have become obsolete. Europe is a land which Audi dominates, a land of style, sophistication and culture. Its no surprise that the American public find the most ostentatious brands the most attractive. You can tell there is something wrong when a countries presidential candidates need to transfer their political views into comic book format to compensate for the overwhelming portion of the public who are illiterate (google it, its sad but true).

And just so you know, in China Audi sell more cars than Mercedes and BMW put together. Seeing as China is an emerging market that will soon overtake the US in terms of car sales, this is a strong foothold for the brand. The sale of all cars in the US is already decreasing rapidly because of their economic turmoil, brought about by the gluttonous overspending of its inhabitants.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 1:53 PM
Just had to reply to your ignorance. The reason why Audi is selling well is because of their association with the Chinese government due to the fact that VW has long had relationship in china and they produce the cars there. In Chinca, imported cars are heavily taxed. So that's why BMw is now expanding in China, with production of the 5 Series and now hte 3. Actually if you look at sales growth, BMW is growing its sales volume in China twice as much as audi and gaining more market share from guess who? Audi lol. A survey donw not too long ago in China also says that BMw was chosen as millionares' choice of vehicle in China. So as BMW expands in China, Audi will lose its current comfy competitive advantage and we'll see the trend with almost all other countries that BMw is much more popular than VW's cheap Audi. You wait for that, it is already happening.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:10 PM
Yes some of what you have said is correct, however BMW will not be able to outdo Audi over there. Audi sells more than double what BMW sells so it woul take something special for them to overtake them. I don't think you realise how high the market share is for Audi in Europe either. The only country in the worls that they are not doing well in is America. What I am trying to say is that car sales in America are decreasing while they are continuosly increasing in China. What Audi is loosing in the US, they will make up for in China in the years to come. It doesn't really matter to me though I don't live in either of those countries.

by xenomorph | November 16, 2008 11:34 AM
Like I said, Audi's market share in China is decreasing drastically. BMW's sales growth in China is more than double that of Audi. i.e. Audi is losing market sare to BMW. America is not the only country that's not selling cars at the moment. If you have a look at china, the car sales figures for luxury cars decrease by percentage is even greater than America. I'm sure you're aware of the low savings tradition that most americans have as opposed to the higher savings ratio of the people in China, and when financial crisis like these happen, luxury goods sales in China would be worse hit than in america, which is currently the case. Maybe you didn;t know that because Audi didn;t post any earnings prediction failures - that's just becasue it is part of VW and would not be reported independently. However if you look at sales volume, audi's drop worldwide by percentage is higher than that of BMW by 3.6% Merc is actually stable, surprisingly.

Here's a list of other countries that Audi do not perform well in, and only sell a fraction of what BMW does: America, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Iceland, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, New Zealand, Mexico. There are many more countries that BMw outsell audi's but all the above had sales more than double that of Audi.

by Freude120 | November 16, 2008 2:01 PM
Don't worry guys, Audi is just feeding the rumor mill with positive "news" to keep the investors from selling their stock ;) Nothing says "I'm financially stable!" that the possibility of successfully releasing even more useless cars with an apparently existent target audience!

by ShinyG | November 13, 2008 2:56 PM
HAHAHAHA!!! Audi is now killing me. I have never laughed so hard in such a long time. Audi is behaving like a 'TROLLEY' company making shopping trolleys for Mart super markets. Audi is certainly giving China a run for it's money with "Pirate Audis".

by Wisp | November 13, 2008 2:58 PM
Of course BMW is exempt from this though with the X6, and soon to be released PAS 3 series derivatives and X1. The BMW fans on this forum are very good at making themselves look stupid. It must just come naturally though.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 1:18 PM
how much is 'Freude120' getting paid for all this? or maybe its just some one at BMW giving him... umm, errr "favors"! haha

by effington | November 15, 2008 4:15 AM
When you love something, you do not need to get paid to spread your passion to someone else...

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:43 AM
The only thing you doing is making a fool of yourself, and you do a top job of that. I think we are all enjoying watching you float in your own ignorance though, I know I am.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 1:56 PM
whats the point????

by notay | November 13, 2008 4:27 PM
Audi haters...funny as it usually comes from a BMW owner. Sorry to burst your bubble boys but your lame a$$ looking BMW's are JUST as boring...All the models look the same too!! Get over it. I agree that an R4 is a stupid idea, but so is an M1 Supercar (which is stupid, stupid ugly)...no manufacturer is perfect. Audi still kicks Beamer's butt in interior and quality ALL day long and quattro always wins for REAL world situations...there are pluses and minus for each brand as you all know! Try to have an open mind...

by allroad | November 13, 2008 4:36 PM
you speak of the M1 like it's a new thing; the M1 has history as does Audi's Quattro S1... the R4 doesn't. So you just can't compare the two...

by Decypha | November 13, 2008 5:39 PM
It is better than all the retro stuff out of detroit...no ideas left. Mercedes is starting to make too many models also

by eddie | November 13, 2008 5:30 PM
all you audi guys and beemer folks out there: get over it.

both brands are simply entry-luxury cash cows, making boring, predictable cars that are meant to make 30 year olds look succesful and 50 year olds look young. they're good cars - great cars, actually - but none of them is made out of passion anymore. and by 'passion' i don't mean the cuore of an italian sports car, but an actual 'persona' - volvo, caddilac and even mercedes, with its old money flair, have more soul than that. not to mention the likes of maserati or bentley, which make REAL premium cars with TANGIBLE personality.

and don't you come out saying a maserati is an expensive fiat, or bentley is an actual volks: despite any cost saving strategies, these are high quality, high end brands with a real image premium for their products. see, DREAMS are what luxury is made of. and that includes not only quality or power, but glamour, tradition, class and, most of all, exclusivity.

now you beemer or audi fans tell me: is there any exclusivity in a world where a nurse goes grocery shopping in an A3 that looks pretty much like your gazillion-dollar A8? not that i see any problems with prestige brands building smaller, more accessible cars, as long as they ALL don't look the same.

after all, exclusivity is not about a number on the trunklid, i guess.

by politz | November 13, 2008 5:32 PM
Volvo???????? Cadillac maybe but they do have misses (BLS) but Volvo??? Passion and Volvo has never been anything I've been able to use in one sentence. Of all the cars taking aim at the German trio I would say that Jaguar has passion (though not obviously apparent as of late) but one cannot argue against Jaguar's heritage and the name still evokes emotion...

Mercedes Benz reeks of old money true; nobody can take that away from them but what about Audi and BMW's motorsport heritage? The Quattro S1 and Le Mans for Audi and the M1 and probably F1 for BMW. When one is in these cars they expect nothing less than a pleasing performance and these cars hold true to that expectation.

by Decypha | November 13, 2008 6:04 PM
Sorry, I agree that Audi cars are not built from passion because they are just slightly modified VW's. But I think all BMW's have souls. The 1 Series Coup was built from passion. I feel th energy when I stand next to one. The M3, such prestige and history behind that badge, The M5, the iconic 3 Series, the X6 - wow what an amazing vehicle, the M6, X5. You tell me you feel nothing for these cars from BMW? and you say Volvo is created with more passion than BMW? I think volvo is like a dead fish to me if you ask.

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 8:11 PM
Everything is crap to you unless it has two pig nostrils on the front and a blue and white proppeller.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:13 PM
No, Mini is a wonderfu little car and Rolls Royce is top of the world too.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:57 AM
Oh yes only the things that are owned by BMW. Don't mension Aston Martin, Bentley, Maserati, Ferarri, Lamborghini, Porsche, Jaguar etc, etc. If you can't accept that there are other cars out there which are special, and in many cases better than BMWs then you are an intransigent retard. All the cars in that above list are superior to BMW though.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 2:05 PM
Sorry I compare apples with apples. Yes aston are great cars. Lambos are too. But I don't like Ferrari's and just to clear up one point, just because Audi made a car in that Ferrari and Lambo segment doesn't make it better than BMw because that R8 is the worst car in its class, understandably the cheapest. It's like if you cannot afford an Aston, get an R8. Also, with all of its other segments: A4 worse than 3, A3 worse than 1, A6 worse than 5, A8 worse than 7, Q5 worse than X3, Q7 worse than X5. Damn, it must be hard to produce products that are never the best. That's why they are undertated. i.e. inferior.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:15 PM
If BMw makes a jet, does that make it better than merc and Audi just because of that, clearly not. Get my point bud?

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:17 PM
Oh dear, you must be having an episode again. The A4 has won the golden steering wheel award to name one, the 3 series hasn't, the A6 won World Car of the Year and is the most successful car in its class and the A8 has always been superior to the abomination known as the 7 series. It seems as though BMW is unable to ever create a good car in the upper luxury segment, they all look terrible and offer nothing substantial in terms of technology, comfort or any other features. In fact all BMWs only offer basic quality interiors and design features that are clearly the worst in each segment. No wonder people are leaving the brand in flocks for better products such as Audi and Mercedes. The R8 is known to be the leader in its calss as well. Its far better than the Porsche 911 which is its closest rival. The thing with cars like that though is that the kind of people who can afford them will likely already have a Porsche and Ferrari in their collection. Money isn't as much of an issue to people who buy those cars.

by xenomorph | November 16, 2008 11:43 AM
You are talking the ggest load of crap that I have ever heard. All your statements are unjustified and are just reflection of your bias opnion. You cannot just flash out a few awards and say it's better than BMW. BMw has won many awards too and many of which are much more prestigeous than what you just mentioned.

By the way, which country do you live in and how old are you?I feel like I am talking to a 9 year old.

by Freude120 | November 16, 2008 2:05 PM
Audi's cars are all boring. They all look like a same. Why they don't learn from merc & BMW? People don't know what to buy when they enter Audi's showroom.

About this R4 it's boring and ugly!, i started to hate there cars because of these boring designs!

by GRAVE | November 13, 2008 5:42 PM
These are some of the STUPIDEST comments I've ever heard. Obviously each person that walked out of the door with a brand new Audi this year didn't have ANY problem deciding which Audi to buy. Obviously, the Audi buyer wants something that isn't a BMW or Merc. Ever heard of an alternative or not wanting to be like everyone else? Then it's just the matter of choosing the model that fits with the customer budget and lifestyle wise. Whether it's a $27,000 Audi A3 or a $96,000 S8. What the hell in your logical mind makes you think that someone walking into the show room to buy either one of these cars is going to have a hard time figuring out which one to buy between the two?!? Some people appreciate Audi's and some don't. I think that it's hard for people to see differences in something that they don't appreciate. If you want to compare... BMW has had 1 series, 3 series, 5 series, 6 series, 7 series, 8 series, X3, X5, X6 and soon an X1. So is that confusing to a BMW shopper? Not to mention that you could have a 318, 320, 323, 325, 328, 330, 335i or 335d. The point is that (1) you aren't making fair comparisons and (2) taste/passion is a subjective matter.

by rcw | November 13, 2008 6:56 PM
Yes I get your point about being different. Many people change from driving a BMw all their lives to Aui so to be different and as soon as they drive the Audi for few weeks, they sell it and immediately jumo back to BMW becasue Audi is just not good enough. I just want to warn those people here as well. Yes, most people buy BMW's but it is because it is the best you can get. You can be different and get an Audi, but who wants to be different in an inferior way? Get it ?

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 8:15 PM
Poor fool, its just lost in its own simplicity. You know how the saying goes though, "ignorance is bliss". gpkh is living his life in denial, if what it said is true then there would be no Audi owners out there. The fact is that their product is now superior in almost every way, which is why so many people are leaving bmw for them. BMWs cost cutting and poor designs have had a detrimental impact on them. gpkh is unable to see these shortcomings though. He does well for a mentally challenged troglodyte though.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:21 PM
How is Audi more superior than BMW? Yes they make more rofits becaus they fool customers by selling them a so called Audi, which is using most parts from Seat, Skoda and VW. Then are you telling me that Audi has better handling, more green, more efficiet, better performance, better brand recognition? The answer is no to all the above if you ask anyone. Theresa reason why Audi is understated - that's because they are best at nothing. i.e. inferior at everything they do

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 9:05 AM
As I have said before to you. Just do a google search on World Car of the year, you will see that Audi has dominated these positions. Why, because they offer a superior product, especially in respect to BMW. Of course the people you ask come from a land that can't even build a car capable of competing with anything from Europe so who are they to judge. In Europe if you ask someone about Audi they will tell you that they are a brand for successful young people, stylish, sophisticated and capable. Not ostentatious, ugly and ubiquitous, which is that of BMW. Audi's performance is superior, 6 Le Manns victories, the R8 and RS4 World performance cars of the year, the S5, runner up World performance car of the year after the R8. Their design is unmatched, TT, R8, World Design Car of the Year. Their luxury features are superior too, the A6, World car of the Year. And that is only the World Car of the Year Awards series; the list of achievements is as endless as your pointless stupidity. Damn, I have to write World Car of the Year so many times I think I'm going to start wearing my fingers down.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 2:16 PM
World car of the year (WCOTY) - that won't wear your fingures down. that award is based on cars that were launched in that year. Clearly if you compare the M3 and R8, itwould be the R8, which clearly costs more than twice an M3. But RS4 won it becasue there were no other good cars launched that year. Doesn;t mean that RS4 is better than the M3.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:20 PM
Have you any idea how many successful young people drive BMw, actually so many more than Audi. Many of them drive the 1 Series and 1 coupe and convertible. Including 3 Series and its derivatives. So you cannot argue that point.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:22 PM
Yes that is true a successful young person could also drive a BMW, or Mercedes, I am just saying that that is the image associated with Audi in general in Europe. Just like Lexus is seen as an excellent luxury car in America in general however in Europe it is only seen as a Toyota and they sell quite poorly. I'm not surprised they sell well in the US though, most people over there have no idea about what a good car is and is not. I can't believe anyone would buy one over a propper German car i.e Audi, BMW or Mercedes.

by xenomorph | November 16, 2008 11:47 AM
Too many Audis? They have 9 different models: A3, A4, A5, A6, A8, Q5, Q7 TT and R8 (the A2 is no longer produced, and the A1 is just a concept). BMW has 9 models too: 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7 Series, plus the Z4, the X3, X5 and X6, SO WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT??

Audi's S and RS cars should not be counted as separate models because they are only different versions of the lineup, same as BMW's M or Mercedes' AMG, Black Series, Designo, etc. Different versions, engines, transmissions or equipment levels do not make different cars.

If i remember correctly, it was BMW who decided to launch the 1 Series to compete with the A3, and then Volvo followed with the C30. Also, as soon as Audi launched the R8, BMW came up with the M1 concept. Audi has been offering quattro for years, and that's why BMW offers AWD in their cars.

I don't think it's wrong to launch a new model to compete with your rivals, as long as it's a decent competitor. Audi launched the RS4 with a 420HP V8, and some months later BMW launched the M3 using a V8 engine for the first time, just so they could offer the same 420HP... which car is better? It's not clear yet, but that's what makes the rivalry interesting.

I used to think BMW made really good cars, I believed in all that "character, soul and fun factor" crap but after owning 2 previous generation A4 and then (stupidly) deciding to change for a 3 Series, I now realize Audi is way ahead of BMW when it comes to quality, reliability, comfort, handling and the list goes on and on.

I should have been loyal to Audi and I deeply regret not being so.

by loyo | November 13, 2008 7:12 PM
Clearly you have bad taste. I don't want to waste my time answering to people like you. But just for the record, BMW had a 4x4 system earlier than audi. Even today, BMw's 4x4 system is much more technologically advanced than Audi. It's just that Audi concentrates on their 4x4 advertising to gain more attention, whereas BMW concentrates on RWD and Efficient Dynamics and driving pleasure. audi wouldn't dare to promote its front wheel drive concept as they know themselves that it is inferior to BMW's RWD. mmm But hy do they still make FWD if thy know it is nferior? Well, because it is basically a VW, only a few minor minor changes and clap th 4 rings on to make money from fools. lol what fools you are - owners of audis

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 8:21 PM
Its amusing that you can't accept being corrected by people who have owned/driven Audi's. Your ignorance and stupidity has been proven time and time again, and it will continue like that indefinitely. You have clearly never driven any BMW or Audi based on all your comments. All you can do is regurgitate the 10 year old reviews of mindless jornalist. I don't think you have even sat in any of these cars seeing as you can't realise the cheap quality, garish design and poor ergonimics of a BMW. It must be frustrating to have never been in any of these cars, but it must be infuriating to know that BMW is fighting a loosing battle against Audi. I'd be shocked and angry too if I were a BMW fan, up untill recently BMW did have an advantage, but its all just sliding down the drain. Its ok though, we can tell that you arer frustrated by Audi's unprecedented success and if it makes you feel a bit better then try and get it out.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:33 PM
You are dead wrong. I live with both Audi and BMW. I drive a 1 Series myself and I also drive my parents' Audi's and let me tell you that Audi is way behind. You must be able to back up your statments. Just because Audi is breeding new models like flies doesn't mean that they are coming up in the world, as they are, like a said flies for me to squash. But if it was like BMW, where royalty was involved. Then they ought to be repsected an worshipped. I which we can meet and I'll walk you through an Audi , point to you their weaknesses and show you what their quality is really like. I would like you to do the same for BMW and I'm sure I'll be able to counter argue successfully.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:55 AM
Oh dear a 1 series, the metrosexual/girl car of the BMW range. Well if you came over where I am I would be happy to show you the rear end of my S5 as I leave you for dead. If Audi is so bad, why on Earth would you let your parents buy them? And royalty driving BMW. In fact they don't. In England Charles drives a Jaguar, Audi A8, Aston Martin and Bentley as well as a few others. The Queen has a Bentley and Prince Henry has an Allroad. In Denmark the Royal Family often use Audi's. Royalty can't settle for second best though, which means BMW is out of the question. They require their products to be at the pinnacle of style, power and luxury. Something BMW doesn't come first in often. They are still good cars, but they are not the best, and certainly not worthy of Royalty at any level. I've driven a 1 series cabriolet as well just so you know. The interior quality is very low, the grade of leather is of a low level, almost everything else is made of low quality plastic and then there is the wood inlays which are inserted in a distasteful arrangement which really doesn't suggest any form of harmony inside at all. The interior is quite small as well and the back seats are largely unuseable. The design is really quite poor, even a Lexus had a better interior and that is truly a sad thing. The seats in the 1 series are very supportive though especially with the adjustable lateral support. The handling and so on are decent, but not excellent. The ride is choppy and to get anywhere you really need to put your foot down which results in poor fuel economy. You see, I have driven a number of comparative BMW models. And every time they do dissapoint. If they were M models I am sure they would be good, but when you get to that level of car everything is of a high standard. Even the Lexus ISF would be a good car to drive, and its a Lexus.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 2:37 PM
Amen loyo!!

by allroad | November 13, 2008 7:59 PM
All I hear from you Freude120 is "blah, blah, blah blah, I'm an idiot, blah blah blah". I don't seem to recal BMW winning any Rally races in the early years either? I think that was Quattro kicking the crap out of everyone...where was BMW..oh yeah making the 2002. Cute car, about it though. Taste is subjective as you know, doesn't make you any better because you drive the 'almighty' BMW...but you're living up to the stigma that surrounds Beamer drivers - 'pricks'. And that's too bad, because I find some BMW models quite intresting...haters like you turn me off though...

by allroad | November 14, 2008 4:49 AM
Allroad, why are you coming up with the races that Audi won decades ago and want to make that as a judgement of how good or bad th two companies are?? You talking about Rally? Does BMW look like it is a dirty mud duck car for you? Clearly it doesn'thave a brand image like that. Audi can go compete with the other dirty mud ducks with their outdated quattro system with cars like Mitsubishi, VW, Toyota and all that. wouldn't mean anything even if tehy wn. BMW is a prestigeous brand that's got it roots into real racing such as road and track, which is what most people that's buying these car use it for anyway, not a mud adventure. BMW's success in participation of the highest level of motor racing like F1 proves its heritage and superiority, while Audi can go show off its 4x4 system on mud - not that they win anyway.

by Freude120 | November 14, 2008 9:06 AM
Besides what kind of theory do you have? You don't want to drive and buy a BMW because you don't like other people who are buying BMW? Bud, you seem insecure. If you like something, you go for it, why care what others will think of you because you disapprove of other people who are buying the same product. You see, with your insecure attitude, you do not fit in to the BMW customer profile in general. So you can stick to your bunch of introvert Audi owners which will give you not only inferior products, but hey, it's also understandably understated. You don't belong at the exclusive BMW Group. Sorry.

by Freude120 | November 14, 2008 9:13 AM
Dont worry Allroad, gpkh/frued would only get into the bmw club as a toilet cleener anyway. Thats its standard, even a propper BMW fan would dismiss an insigificant smear such as it. The thing is though, it promoted bmw when it hasn' even ever driven one. Its probably just a dillusional 13 year old.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:39 PM
correction, I'm 23 and I drive the 1 and Audi's day in and day out on holiday trips, etc. BMW is just so much more fun to drive and cool to be in than the boring ugly old VW's Audi.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 9:10 AM
If you really are 23 then you have some serious problems. I really hope for your sake that you aren’t. Someone at that age would have to be truly pathetic to be spouting the retarded garbage you are. At least a 13 year old has the excuse of being young and naive. A 23 year old doesn't. It's a shame that even VW has better designs than BMW. Look at the Passat CC, the Eos and the scirroco. Its one thing for BMW to be outdone by Audi, but to be outdone by VW is really just laughable. After all BMW does make some of the worst looking cars on the market. Look at the pig nosed "kidney" grille that they use on all there models. On the new 7 series it embodies nothing more closely than that of a pig. The body of that car looks bold and bland such as that of a hippopotamus, and then the rear section looks as though it were copied off a Lexus. The 3 series sedan is the most awkward looking compact sedan available too. Even an IS250 Lexus/toyota garbage car has a more pleasant design. I could keep going on about all of their models shortcomings, but I would be here forever. It’s just so easy to point out the faults of a BMW in a clear precise manner because there are so many. The best you can do is say things like boring or ugly. Most likely inner self images being expelled. You are after all a troglodyte.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 2:48 PM
sorry to burst your bubble, but you call BMW's ass sorry looking? Go look at yourA4's ugly sorry ass! Man, that a4 has one ugly smudged loking ass, so does the A5. They are plain UHLY if you ask me and BMW is way better! Put the 3 Series and A4 together and you tell me which ass will make you vomit - probably the A4. And you tell me all models from BMW look the same? are you blind or something? You tell me the 3 looks like the 5 and the 5 looks like the 7 and the 7 looks like the 1? Wake up, you don't know what you're talking about. The A4 looks like the A6 looks like the A8 - rubbish cars with no soul and character, just like their drivers and owners with bad taste. M1 was 30 years ago, it took Audi 30 years to copy BMW but frankly, these type of cars from premium brands are out of fashion, that's why BMW doesn't do it anymore. That's why R8 is making a huge loss. You tell me audi interior is good? Well check out the latest magazine ratings and reviews, they all say Audi interior is stale and boring as they copy from one model to the next. BMW interior is stylish and simple. They compare Audi interior as a neat office and BMw interior to an art galery. I'd rather be in an art gallery. As for reliability, Audi is just a few steps above VW worldwide. BMW is up there on top of the charts with Toyota. the 3 Series has just been crowned the most (no.1) reliable car in Europe, where did the A4 come? - 56th!!! That's a bloody shame considering they are the same class and you pay the same money. As for the Quattro, it is such an outdated system which cannot even beat the sophistication and technological advancement of the BMW xDrive. As for real world situation? What do you mean? Topgear tested BMw and Audi and Audi could stick properly to the track, BMW had perfect road handling, the car went whereever the driver wanted it to go. PS real world situation is not straight line speed from 0-100. It's twists and bends, and sorry the nose heavy audi just cannot handle that as good as any BMW. The 1 Series is more fun to drive than an RS4. Lastly, when I buy a sports car, I want true RWD sports car, not some idiotic 4x4 car that wants to be like a sports car. If I want a 4x4, I'd rather go for the X5, you fools!

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 8:04 PM
the above comments are directed at allroad's stupid remarks earlier on

by Freude120 | November 13, 2008 8:07 PM
Freude120, stop being a hater. Find something else to do apart from arguing with everyone's posts.

by carbonsigma | November 14, 2008 8:49 AM
Wow, it looks like gpkh/frued is about to explode into a torrent of diahorea, which is all it really is. You have to give it credit though, its just so dillusional its almost at the point of insanity. The comments are desperate gasps. "BMWs interiors are like an art gallery", that is just so stupid its funny, like everything else it says. I just can't wait for the next gasp of desperation. So far we have had "BMW has superior quality because of the flower designs on it test mule cars", "the R8 handles worse than the C class", "the 7 series is the most beautiful car in the world" and now "BMW interiors are like an art gallery". I'm looking forward to his next "episode".

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 12:48 PM
By the way, the art gallery thing was a quote from a well known magazine, which is true - Audi interior = neat office, nothing special, boring; BMW interior = art gallery with style and quality that makes you feel relaxed. Here's another one from comments above: Just because Audi is breeding new models like flies doesn't mean that they are coming up in the world, as they are, like I said flies for me to squash. But if it was like BMW, where royalty was involved, then they ought to be repsected an worshipped.

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 9:20 AM
I suppose this well known magazine also said that "the flower patterns on BMWs test mules show the companies high quality" and that the "R8 handles worse than a C class"? Unfortunately your dillusional mind doesn't count as a magazine source, as much as you would like it to. I wonder if you are schizophrenic? The facts add up, and that would explain your retarted inagination and posts. You will need to deal with your frustration of BMW being beaten or it will just consume you (if it hasn't already). All that comming onto Audi forums and posting pro BMW garbage shows is how desperate BMW must be from your opinion. If you had more confidence in the brand you wouldn't need to do that. I don't need to go onto BMW forums and put down BMWs because Audi already does that. You really must be terrified of Audi to have to do this. All I can say is that your terror is justifiable with the way BMW is going. Look at what a flop the new 7 series is for example. Even the A8 which is 6 years old is better than it, as well as th Mercedes S class and Lexus LS460. It must feel terrible to see BMWs being outdone left right and centre.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 3:02 PM
WOW..glad I pushed someones button! BMW's in general are sorrrrrry a$$ lame looking compared to earlier years for sure. (like you, I have on opinion too ;) and that is all you have...) You make my point perfectly though!! Just say you are a hater, just admit it, you will feel better... BMW, as well as AUDI, as well as Benz ALL, yes all goofball, have the same styling ques within their respective brands...period. If you can't see it, I suggest a visit to check your vision. We can blah, blah, blah back and forth all day long about it. Face it, each brand has something different to offer good AND bad. I've owned them all and REAL world is not just twisties and bends - it includes ice, snow, and gravel too. I'll take quattro thank you very much as it is superior still even to your precious xDive or Drive, whatever. Just take your nose out of the air for a moment and enjoy ALL cars for their distinctive fun and frustrations...see you on the road friend.

by allroad | November 13, 2008 9:29 PM
I don't think you will see it on the road, it probably doesn't even have a licence. You won't find a more desperate soul that this cretin, I assure you that. Just read its comments for the amusement they bring. I'd say its heading for a fatal mental fit sooner or later. Especially seeing as Audi's products are on a steady state to the top while BMWs are levelling off and decreasing in general. Its always a shame to see a car company withering. Hopefully in time they will pick up once again.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 1:00 PM
freude120 man your comments are the stupidest thing i have read i awhile, you must be a minority who thinks the r8 is boring, i think all the people who are the 3 year waiting list will have to disagree with you, why dont you get a life and dont post 5 different comments on an audi topic about how great bmw.

by drew | November 13, 2008 10:36 PM
+1

by carbonsigma | November 14, 2008 8:50 AM
I just cannot stand VW audi's making a fool out of you guys. Firstly the R8 takes 3 months to build and ship to whereever you are. They say 3 years to create an artificial demand so that they can keep selling them at high prices. It is a marketing trick. You go order yours today, and you'll probably get it in a few months. There's no waiting lists as such, it is a trick. Go try it out, well, they'll probably say to you afetr a few months that one of thecustomers cancelled their order and we can giv this one to you now, but tehre are also so many cstomer waiting for thi so if you wan this you must grab now. It's bluff! Why? To maek you feel you're one of a few, make you feel you're getting benefit, to make as muchmoney out o you as they'll unlikely give you a lower price afetr theirwonderful story, it is to eliminate the bargainingpower out of you. Don't be fool! Please!

by Freude120 | November 14, 2008 9:20 AM
The thing thats so funny is that gpkh/freud has been fooled into thinking BMW is the best. BMW just isn't offering a premium product in comparison to Audi.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 1:06 PM
What an irony, Audi is the one using all VW, Seat and Skoda parts - which definatly is not premium. But somehow they are marketing it as a premium product. Well only fools would buy into that. Just check how much profit per unit they make ad you'll see what I mean, just a reflection on how stupid ther supporters and cutomers are. IOW, if you suppot VW's Audi, go voice it in the cheap cars' markt with Toyota n Honda, not here where BMW and Merc is. Becasue yourAdi is notpremium enough to be here, so don't supporters like you!

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 9:00 AM
Your post doesn't even have propper gramatical sense to it or succinct readability however I can work around your shortcommings. You say to me not to talk about Audi here, this is an Audi discussion forum, its here to discuss Audi, not BMW. I think you are a bit confused by the forums setup. Its a bit dissapointing for a 23 year old. I suppose that Bentley, Lamborghini and Porsche are also cheap because they share VW parts? The thing is though, that there parts are often better than those used by BMW. Why else would Porsche have bought into the Audi/VW empire to setup more part sharing and why else would Lamborghini and Bentley share components with them. If the part is of high quality there is no issue of whether it is to be used in a Bentley or a VW really. Aston Martin will soon start sharing components from Mercedes too. Its a smart buisiness move that allows advanced profit margins. Look at Porsche, they made $15billion in profit. Theres no better example of product sharing than the previous examples benefits.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 3:12 PM
BMW's rear end is looking more and more like Audi's. Hmmm... Sure is ugly.

by nurchus | November 13, 2008 11:33 PM
Which BMW rear end looks lile the ugly Audis' sorry ass butt?

by Freude120 | November 14, 2008 9:23 AM
An entry level midengined car from Audi would be great, i look forward to seeing it and hopefully driving one around a track someday.

by MadMatter | November 14, 2008 1:10 AM
Sorry, it's not a sports car, it's a 4x4. You don't drive this around the track, you drive it in mud, like Rally? That' what the Quattro system is for. Besides, it is the worst car in it class, looks like a RAT. If you want a true sports car, you can get the famous prestigeous M3 with heritagethat'll give you more fun than these sports cars want to be VW Audi's.

by Freude120 | November 14, 2008 9:25 AM
Thats right, dont buy the R8 that looks like a rat (which achieved world design car and world perfomance car of the year; you must hate hearing that), buy the M3 that looks like a pig (and hasn't achieved world design car of the year or world performance car of the year). It feels so good to be right all the time. Honestly though its an unfair advantage that I have over you gpkh.

by xenomorph | November 14, 2008 1:10 PM
Not a track car? wow you must not be informed at all at Motorsports, huh kiddo? Quattro was so dominant in the FIA that Audi Quattro cars were issued a 95 KG penalty in added weight to make the race more competitive. even after the weight penalties, the Quattros where still dominant in the track and beating all the competition, including BMW. this was when it was ruled an "Unfair Advantage" and Audi was not allowed to use their Quattro system at the track any more due to beating BMW in every race, even after the added weight penalties. So to say Quattro is not meant for the track i guess your right if you were reffering to it being superior to other cars in the track with you.

I couldnt begin to tell you how many M3's i've flown by at the track in my Quattro, how many M3's i ve beaten at the local autocross. Dont get me wrong, an M3 is a great car, iam not trashing it in any way, iam just saying my Quattro at the track is a great experience. i can come into a controlled slide and simply outgrip any rearwheel drive car, in any condition.

by MadMatter | November 14, 2008 5:59 PM
WOW...

What is going on here, I thought I'm looking at an Audi article and the comments are all about BMW?

Wait, I have to check the topic again...

...I just checked, this actually IS all about Audi and there is no word in the whole article about any BMW or anything related to BMW.

Freude120 gtfo

by CH | November 14, 2008 2:49 PM
Hahahaha.... Oh my soul! Thanks for the laugh xenomorph, u just proved the principles of marketing "it"!

by carbon_dew | November 14, 2008 4:56 PM
I wonder if this is BMWs latest marketing move, a computer that has been programmed to target the competition. Looks like "its" (gpkh/freude120) of usual BMW standars though, can't spell, cant complete gramatically correct statements and most of all, can't come out on top.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 3:18 PM
Battery of keyboard running flat, don't have time to go back and recheck as I have much better things to do than writing a perfect comment to senseless 9 year old Audi supporters like you. quite frankly, you do not deserve my extra effort. My main objective is to get my message across. You have no idea how many people just read and not comment and thy have brains to decide for themselves which brand is better. Let me assure you, most will go for BMW as is the current situation.

by Freude120 | November 16, 2008 2:11 PM
Freude, as much a BMW cock stroker that you are, BMW 1 series has almost the same rear end.

by nurchus | November 14, 2008 8:11 PM
What has that got to do with the beautiful rear end of the 1 Series?

by Freude120 | November 16, 2008 2:17 PM
Can't wait for this bb supercar to come out!

by The_woo_factor | November 15, 2008 12:22 AM
BRING ON THE r4!

by The_woo_factor | November 15, 2008 12:27 AM
Hhaa.....i feel sorry for the BMW fans. They DESPERATELY claim that BMW are the best when they all know they all look like they are car wrecks! PITY THE FOOLS!

by The_woo_factor | November 15, 2008 12:29 AM
Who is the stupid moron saying the R4 or r8 looks like a rat and worst in the class?!??!?! DO YOU HAVE A BRAIN!? Look at the 6 series and the so called M1? If you say they look good, than you have rocks in your head or just plain BLIND! That is an unfortunate symptom of BRAND IGNORANCE.

MY ADVICE...see an AUDI-OLOGIST.

by The_woo_factor | November 15, 2008 12:33 AM
My advice to it, get a lobotomy if it already hasn't.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 3:21 PM
I dont know why but if Audi is such a bad car, why is there 69 (this will be the 70th) message on this blog? Its the most talked about car!! The_woo_factor is right....BMW tried many times to make sports cars but failed. M1, Z8, Z9 didnt really go anywhere and the 8 series that seized production, CS concept. Now they are focusing on 4x4. Benz introducing more people movers and Audis more sports cars. Whats everyones problem? I dunno about you but I'd choose sports cars.

by Yawung | November 15, 2008 3:37 AM
I can't believe I forgot about all of those BMW failure models. Think about it, Audi has never removed a car from its line-up. What’s worse, adding new models or constantly having to remove them because they are failing products? GPKH/freude120, its time for another BMW/epileptic fit I believe.

by xenomorph | November 15, 2008 3:24 PM
Xenomorph, you're nuts! WCOTY is only competing with those cars that're launched in that year, so just becasue it won WCOTY, doens;t mean that it is the best. In fact, I think Audi is trying to grab all car of th year awards by introducing bigger models when BMW introduce theirs just to snatch that award, like R8 and M3. Whn BMw does not come out with something, they brin out their crap like th RS4. Nice trick though. As for discontinued products, they are not discontinued, they are just limited editions. BMW is an exclusive and prestigeous company, its products will not last forever, i.e. the great value of all BMws. unlike audi's that's just off another VW line, forever producing like toilet paper. BMW's are like limited edition gold coins. Don't you agree?

by Freude120 | November 15, 2008 8:34 PM
No I don't agree, the models were discontinued because they were failures LOL. No one wanted to buy the 8 series or Z8, or M1 which is why they went out of production. Put simply for you... the cars were so bad at what they were built to do they were cancelled because they were failing to return profits. Its really funny that BMW has offered so many products that have failed and then you turn it around by saying they are like a gold coin. Yet another one of your retarded analogies. You must really feel special driving around in your 1 series "limited edition gold coin". LOL, oh that is pathetic to the most ridiculous end of all things.

by xenomorph | November 16, 2008 11:57 AM
As much as you laugh at products like the Z8 (bond car), M1, they are part of BMW's history and they were a few of many specials models that helped build the BMw that it is today, that contributed to the exclusive that the BMw brand means to many people including me. They are special vehiles that made the brand. Obviously those cars have no meaning to you. But if you ask most people and mention Z8, M1, 8 Series, thy'll show you signs of approval and recognition of BMW. You mention RS4, they say: "what? Audi? oh, it's only been around for 2 years" You getwhat I mean little boy?

by Freude120 | November 16, 2008 2:23 PM
Now gpkh/fruede the important thing to take away from this discussion thread is that the R4 will likely be released and it will be an absolutely amazing car, which will share components with the Porsche Cayman. You can spout and pout all the pro BMW anti Audi garbage you want but at the end of the day, this is what the forum is about. The sad thing is that you are tarnishing BMW by associating yourself with them. They are a great car company that deserve better treatment. A true car enthusiast can appreciate all cars for what they are and accept competition as a worthy asset to improving themselves.

by xenomorph | November 16, 2008 12:15 PM
I dont; regard VW's Audi using seat parts with 4 rings as competition for BMW. That's why I am anti VW's Audi because in essence, they are making fools out of the public and make them pay extra for their common crap. Get it? You want exclusive, premium, original products from the no.1 company with independence, BMW!!!!

by Freude120 | November 16, 2008 2:27 PM
Hey Xenomorph, just to reply to your question. I know Freude120, we study together, although he does part time. You are really so madly in defence of Audi and 120 is right. You're NUTS!!! You will not accept defeat although you know deep down you are supporting an inferior, yes inferior, product. By the way, I would like you to also comment on the fact that Audi has never won any International Engine of the year awards, when BMW wins every single one year after year. Not even Porsche, nor Ferrari can beat BMW.

Also I would like you to comment on the 135i, CS concept, coming Z4, M6. You know, all journalists have commented favourably on all those models and I would like to see you bash it down.

Although you constantly attack what we love with all our hearts. we'd love to meet you one day and show you what it is that makes us love BMWs and why we find Audi's disguisting.

by GPKH | November 16, 2008 2:38 PM
R(igidity)!!! There in no more than 0000, like like badge says really.

by alessandro | November 17, 2008 4:09 PM
Just because you all love BMW doesn't mean it's the best...i think a lot of journalists and a lot of experts would not agree with u..BMW is simply beneath Audi..and about the international engine award: BMW just managed in 2007 what audi managed in 2004..

by steflea | November 26, 2008 3:30 PM

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